Monday, May 17, 2010
The Latest DUH Study: CNN experiment Shows Black and White Children have Bias Toward Light Skin. Duh.
Nearly 60 years after the Brown v. Board of Education ruling segregated US schools and more than a year after the election of the country’s first black president, white children have an overwhelming white bias, and black children also have a bias toward white, according to a new study commissioned by CNN. I’m shocked! Next thing you know, someone will discover that fat meat is greasy.
First of all (black people love to say that), why is CNN commissioning this study? Am I the only one that finds this odd? I need answers Soledad. But, I digress.
A white child looks at a picture of a black child and says she’s bad because she’s black. A black child says a white child is ugly because he’s white. A white child says a black child is dumb because she has dark skin. No shit, we needed a whole study to figure that out?
Renowned child psychologist and University of Chicago professor Margaret Beale Spencer, a leading researcher in the field of child development, led the study. She designed the pilot study and led a team of three psychologists: two testers to execute the study and a statistician to help analyze the results.
According to CNN, her team tested 133 children from schools that met very specific economic and demographic requirements. In total, eight schools participated: four in the greater New York City area and four in Georgia.
Spencer’s test aimed to re-create the landmark Doll Test from the 1940s. Those tests, conducted by psychologists Kenneth and Mamie Clark, were designed to measure how segregation affected African-American children.
The Clarks asked black children to choose between a white doll and — because at the time, no brown dolls were available — a white doll painted brown. They asked black children a series of questions and found they overwhelmingly preferred white over brown. The study and its conclusions were used in the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education case, which led to the desegregation of American schools—which btw, was fucking brilliant.
In the new study, which is friggin boring , Spencer’s researchers asked the younger children a series of questions and had them answer by pointing to one of five cartoon pictures that varied in skin color from light to dark. The older children were asked the same questions using the same cartoon pictures, and were then asked a series of questions about a color bar chart that showed light to dark skin tones. (yawn)
The tests showed that white children, as a whole, responded with a high rate of what researchers call “white bias,” identifying the color of their own skin with positive attributes and darker skin with negative attributes. Spencer said even black children, as a whole, have some bias toward whiteness, but far less than white children. Another shocker.
“All kids on the one hand are exposed to the stereotypes” she said. “What’s really significant here is that white children are learning or maintaining those stereotypes much more strongly than the African-American children. Therefore, the white youngsters are even more stereotypic in their responses concerning attitudes, beliefs and attitudes and preferences than the African-American children.”
Spencer says this may be happening because “parents of color in particular had the extra burden of helping to function as an interpretative wedge for their children. Parents have to reframe what children experience … and the fact that white children and families don’t have to engage in that level of parenting, I think, does suggest a level of entitlement. You can spend more time on spelling, math and reading, because you don’t have that extra task of basically reframing messages that children get from society.”
Huh?
OK, I’m no scientist, but isn’t the more likely reason black kids have a less bias toward whiteness because African-American children are simply exposed to a broader array of African-Americans whereas many white children’s only exposure to black people is through the media?
As an African-American woman, I know how diverse and dynamic other black folks are because I live the experience every day. Why is it so shocking that white kids embrace more stereotypes? We often stereotype what we don’t understand. I had stereotypes about the Middle East until I traveled there. We are all guilty of stereotyping other cultures, regions, religions etc. If a white child’s only exposure to black people is popular culture, then we can’t be surprised when they believe we are all dumb thugs, hookers, rappers, ball players and criminals. White children being more “stereotypic in their responses” seems to be a direct product of their environmental influences.
Also, I’m not sure where she’s going with this, but her implication that white parents are able to spend more time teaching spelling and math because black parents are focused on having black power meetings in the basement with their children is a little looney. On the bright side, now we can say our kids don’t do well in school because black parents are too busy teaching how-to-be-black-in-america classes, to deal with silly spelling and math stuff.
And as for the issue of white entitlement, as little black kids growing up we were told that we had to be twice as good to be considered equal to our white peers. White kids’ parents don’t have to tell them that. White entitlement exists. Duh. Study over. Can someone go work on prostate cancer or Parkinson’s Disease now?
As our society becomes more diverse and children are exposed to other cultures in the classroom and workplace more often, tests like these will become less and less relevant.
Instead of focusing on this notion of “white entitlement” and making white kids less “racist” perhaps this should be a wake-up call for the African-Americans to look at the images we present of ourselves through the mainstream media and the type of portrayals of ourselves that we support. We must remember we are in global society and the images we present of ourselves are sometimes the only exposure other cultures have to us. I think working on this aspect of our culture is far more important than making white kids like black kids more. Perhaps, if the only black people they saw weren’t Ray-J, Lil Wayne, Medea, or the fool on the 6 o’ clock news, we could get somewhere.
CNN reports that Spencer said the study points to major trends but is not the definitive word on children and race. It does lead her to conclude that even in 2010, “we are still living in a society where dark things are devalued and white things are valued.” No shit Sherlock.
You know what, I’m going to call CNN right now and ask if they’ll pay me to do a study to see if the lack of fathers in the home has affected the black community. Just watch, the results will be explosive!
AML on 18 May 2010 at 12:38 am #
I agree Jam, YAWWWWN!
The only reason I can scratch upon as to why they feel the need to do this every 20 years or so is to see if BET is working or not. YES, WE HAAAVE A WINNER! Let’s watch the opening bell tomorrow, BET is going to go through the roof!
Perhaps the children (black or white) associate ‘ugly’ and ‘bad’ with the black dolls because they make them as ugly as hell! Have you seen the selection at Toys R Us? They make it hard on a sister at Christmas. Imagine my child’s glee at receiving Harriet Tubman in a onesie!
I did find the paragraph about black power meetings in the basement particularly funny!
THERREN DUNHAM
on 18 May 2010 at 7:24 am #
Well said, and well done.
Though I must say, this DOES kinda play into all that I said in your other blog this month.
Just a thought.
TCLO
on 18 May 2010 at 7:28 am #
I must tell you the story of my son & his 1st expeirence with white people. My son goes to a private school( his neighborhood school did not meet my standards). His school is mostly white but with tons of other cultures,af-amn of course, indian(from india), asian,etc. Different religions, christian, jewish, etc. Different lifestyles, I notice a few 2 mommy couples last year. So you see his school is diverse. Well my dad was afraid that my son wouldn’t know he was blk which was silly to me since we have blk neighbors, go to an all blk church, associate with other blk families. But my hubby & I wanted to know how he preceived his classmates( 5 kids, 2 wh girls, 1 biracial girl, 1 wh boy, & him). So we asked what color was he, he responded “brown”. & your teacher, “brown” & your friends, “brown”. He was 3yrs old. He didn’t acknowledge white until he was about 5 or 6 & then they were pink!
Stereotypes are like opinions everyone has then & until you expose yourself & your children to other things/ppl/cultures then you’ll always have one about something/one.
My son is 8 & has dreads & as a mother of 2 boys I thought I would never get the “hair” phone call either. He stayed @ a classmates house & they wanted to go swimmimng. The mom called & asked what to do about his hair!(Only prob because my son is nutty) but oh well I bet that’s an expierence that family will never forget!
Mamadoc
on 18 May 2010 at 9:53 am #
maybe the study was intended to encourage more white families to adopt black children.
Anthonyx
on 18 May 2010 at 11:26 am #
Is there a study that details the self-hatred most whites feel about their own skin colour tha tthey would actually pay to get “burned” in a psuedo-oven so they can lose their pigmentation?
Will that study ever come out?
David
on 18 May 2010 at 1:03 pm #
do you think cooper has a preferance for white scrotums and anuses?
jam donaldson
on 18 May 2010 at 1:22 pm #
not that there’s anything wrong with it…
Ilíon
on 18 May 2010 at 2:28 pm #
Isn’t Cooper the fellow who brought the (gay) term “teabagger” to the public’s attention?
Ilíon’s last blog post..You will not believe this!
Dr. Kiti
on 18 May 2010 at 4:50 pm #
Shoot, when I was growing (I’m only 30) I was grateful for any dolls at all, black or white. I grew up with Barbie but I also had my parents, grandparents and aunt to explain to me how beautiful Black people are. I never favored white skin over black. I loved my black Barbies and only got mad when the hair got too nappy to comb. To me my Black Barbies looked like the women in my family. I even had a black astronaut Barbie. I still buy a black Happy Holidays Barbie every year because they appeal to me so much more.
@TCLO: I remember when I found out what white people are too. My mother was on the phone with my aunt and she referred to my best friend as ‘Shaunte’s white friend’. I only had one friend since we’d just moved into the nieghborhood so it had to be my best friend. I got kinda scared, like I wasn’t supposed to be friends with her and I’d get in trouble for being friends with a white person. Then I stopped and thought about it; my grandmother is white, Miss Piggy is ‘white’ and Barbie is white, all of which I loved. So I came to the conclusion that everything that I’d heard about white people couldn’t be all true because I had these white people in my life that I loved. I was 5 years old when I learned to think for myself. I even asked my mother if she was talking about my friend just to make sure I’d heard her correctly. She has always been there when I needed guidance.
Ilíon
on 19 May 2010 at 1:29 am #
I learned about racism the hard way … from my black “friends.”
Ilíon’s last blog post..You will not believe this!
jam donaldson
on 19 May 2010 at 1:33 am #
@ AML — LMAO at Harriet Tubman in a onesie!
THERREN DUNHAM
on 19 May 2010 at 11:49 am #
@David: That’s just mean. And uncalled for.
@Illion: 1. Nice to see you on a thread OTHER THAN IBVs. 2. The term “teabagger” may be homoerotic in nature, but it’s not necessarily a gay act. And no, he didn’t. 3. A person of one race learns about racism from people of another one, the same way we all do (the hard way). All together now…DUH!
@Jam: Honestly, I would love to see a line of dolls featuring a Harriet Tubman as a baby/small child. It would benice to see a line of baby Mary Bethunes, Lena Hornes, and Dorothy Heights. Of course, it would be priced so damn high that it wouldn’t be accessible to the ones who need it most, but what if a Walmart or Target would market such a thing, instead of having a toymaker do so through some obscure publication like American Legacy? It can be done, and it’s plausible, but will it happen? nope, because we too often laugh at such a notion. And then we sit around at circular firing squads, lamenting why we don’t appreciate our collective and individual beauty.
Ilíon
on 19 May 2010 at 6:08 pm #
“The term “teabagger” may be homoerotic in nature, but it’s not necessarily a gay act.”
Is this where we say D’UH!
“And no, he didn’t.”
You’re sure about that? Now, I don’t claim to be all-knowing, but I’m not aware of the term being applied to people like me until this
“A person of one race learns about racism from people of another one, the same way we all do (the hard way). All together now…DUH! .”
And yet, are we not always told that people — or, to be more precise: wicked, evil white people, like me — drink racism in mothersmilk?
Ilíon’s last blog post..Vox Day’s Problem
Jam Donaldson on 20 May 2010 at 8:33 am #
Therren, Im not sure if you missed the point or are just being inflammatory BUT, I had to agree when companies make black baby dolls, thet often have faces that look like an adult Harriet Tubman not a 9 month old baby. Now a doll that IS or represents Harriet Tubman and the other icons you named would be fantastic. But don’t try to mischaracterize what I’m saying as some self-hatred of babies with black features because that’s not what I’m saying. A 9-month old baby doll, whatever color it is, whatever features it has, should have the face of a 9 month old baby,
Additionally, as a black woman, I don’t feel
obliged to think all black people are attractive. Can you say Biz Markie? Tiny?
THERREN DUNHAM
on 20 May 2010 at 6:16 pm #
@Illion: 1. Touche, but I’m not the one implying that it was, either. 2. And yes, I’m sure. I don’t know where the term came from, or who corrupted the word to associate the tea party to it. But I have enough good sense to not blame a man, much less a gay man, for it without at least some evidence. 3. FAIL. No, dude. Nobody tells me how to think, but people always tell me how to treat them by how they treat me. Generalizations are cheap.
@Jam: And speaking of cheap, I never once questioned the love you have for yourself or your people. And just as you have every right to dignify your comments, so do I.
I think what YOU may have missed is that like AML, I have daughters, too. And I STRUGGLE with going to a toy store and figuring out what toys are inappropriate, which are unattractive, and which are cute (to me) and my kids will actually want to take home. That’s hard enough without being a FATHER (and thus seen as unable to understand. Sigh).
So I hear what both of you are saying (my fiancee laughed at the Harriet Tubman crack, too, by the way). And I made a faint chuckle also. And then I thought about it. WHY NOT have a HT doll? Or a CSK? MMB? A line of great black women in American history–as infants or toddlers–can be a great tool to teach our young women that there are so many types of beauty, that all great (wo-)men didn’t just fall out of the sky, and, iconic and important the Barbie line always will be, inspire black girls to reach for the stars in ways that Barbie never could.
Now, I also know there would be difficulties in promoting this particular toy line, but I see far more EXCUSES than legitimate issues in it seeing the light of day and enjoying success. That’s all I’m saying, and I stand by my comments. I don’t care if you felt that every black doll on the market is ugly (and yes, there are some homely ass dolls out there. But come on, even you have to admit they’ve come a loooooooong way. Unless, of course, you want to see a return of monochromatic white dolls in black face and pickininny hair? Maybe you prefer mammy dolls?)
Toys are made to entertain, yes. But they are also made to educate and inspire. Why not inspire children to see beauty in all things, and different types of beauty at that?
Your last staement I’m taking as a throwaway line that had no bearing on the merits of either argument. And, personally, I find it beneath you to go there.
jam donaldson
on 20 May 2010 at 7:04 pm #
OK, maybe im missing something but it seems like we are agreeing. I think Harriet Tubman dolls would be fantastic, if they were called Harriet Tubman dolls. I think they’re ugly baby dolls just as i think there are ugly babies.
All I’m saying is that companies can make generic black babies and not have them look like Miss Jane Pittman. (unless its a miss jane pittman doll)
I’m not sure if you are making a standard of beauty argument but i think we are really on the same page.
Ilíon
on 20 May 2010 at 7:05 pm #
I didn’t say that Anderson Cooper invented the term “teabagging.” I said that so far as I know it was he who first applied the obscene term to Tea Partiers.
Ilíon’s last blog post..Jonah Goldberg on FF and V
Ilíon
on 20 May 2010 at 7:07 pm #
And, until this thread, I had no idea the guy is gay.
Ilíon’s last blog post..Jonah Goldberg on FF and V
THERREN DUNHAM
on 20 May 2010 at 10:05 pm #
LOL, agreed. I’m with you that there are still way too many dolls of color that have plenty to be desired, but I don’t think the pickings are nearly as slim as they were a generation ago. In fact, I marveled at seeing Mattel’s replica FIRST black Barbie from 1980 (and was aghast that the damn thing was fifty bucks!) But I digress; I’m even down with a Jane Pittman doll, if it’s done with care and respect. There will always be ugly dolls (and I guess ugly people as well), but the toy companies are trying. I hope. And we shouldn’t ever have to find ourselves mocking the likes of Harriet Tubman to make that point.
As far as the whole standard of beauty thing, I’m just glad that we have real choices now, and the luxury to dismiss certain dolls as less than attractive.
jam donaldson
on 22 May 2010 at 9:33 pm #
on that, i think we can all agree. I think you raise a good point on acknowledging that being able to call a black doll unattractive is indeed a luxury. In this day and age of endless choices, its easy to forget that. There was a day when the pickings were so slim that such a comment was heresy. I agree, companies are trying and there has been progress. More choice is always better. Sometimes its nice to have a reminder not to take our monumental progress in the last 30 years for granted. Thank you for that.
Miles Ellison
on 23 May 2010 at 3:29 am #
Why is anyone still watching CNN?
Ilíon
on 23 May 2010 at 6:41 am #
Because bad habits can be hard to break?
Ilíon’s last blog post..Rethinking Robin Hood
AML on 27 May 2010 at 3:02 am #
and this is why black comedians won’t ever reach the acclaim of a Seinfeld; they don’t have the chance to be funny because we’re always coming at them with ‘don’t forget you black’, ‘don’t say that, you black’, ‘don’t talk about black, you black’ BS. DANG, all i was saying is that a babydoll should look like a BABYdoll, black or white. i buy both when they fit that criteria. in fact, a white one scared the shit out of me a while back and i made sure that my OH MY DAMN, THAT DOLL’S HIDEOUS! was heard by the white woman on the aisle, ’cause i’m black! Jam, you got it. Therren FAIL on that one. (disclaimer, to save you some time - yes i meant to say ‘you black’ rather than ‘you’re black’ because some things just sound better BLACK, meaning i was jiving my neck and pursing my lips while i was typing. same for the caps.) DONE-ZO.
Ilíon
on 27 May 2010 at 6:33 am #
Oddly enough, I barely know who Seinfeld is. And care less. And, apparently, most of the rest of the country agrees on the second.
Ilíon’s last blog post..People Are Crazy
THERREN DUNHAM
on 29 May 2010 at 4:21 pm #
AML, the only failure I have is in deciding whether to be pissed at you or pity you.
Assuming thet there’s nothing really to be pissed about, if all of this is just about dolls, then one should have the quiet dignity to simply allow the toys rise and fall on their merits and let it be. We are all free to decide for ourselves what dolls are cute and ugly, poorly constructed and inappropriate. I just don’t see where you have to make a spectacle of yourself in front of white people in order to say a white doll isn’t cute (mighty black of you, though), or fall all over yourself in the hopes of buffering your hood pass by justifying your use of ebonics (ditto).
And don’t get me wrong, AML, it’s cool that you don’t agree with me–we all have our own truths. But what the flying hell does Jerry Seinfeld have to do with anything? And it’s not like an Eddie Murphy, Redd Foxx, Richard Pryor, Whoopi Goldberg, or Mo’Nique never faced the same pressures to maintain racial/cultural integrity before crossing over.
As I’ve said before,just saying…
THERREN DUNHAM
on 29 May 2010 at 4:24 pm #
@Ilíon: Personally I can’t stomach the man, but you couldn’t be more wrong about Seinfeld and his popularity. Dude gets mad love.
AML
on 31 May 2010 at 4:28 pm #
TD, you have talked yourself into such a circle of mumble-jumble that i’m afraid you’ve spun a web that you’re desperately trying to untangle in your defense. you are now so far removed from the intial pun that all of this is has become nonsensical. typing a lot does not mean you’re necessarily saying a lot.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 31 May 2010 at 4:54 pm #
And I thought I was being brief (lol). Ok, maybe I didn’t get what you were saying (doesn’t necessarily make that MY fault); but, I’m not trying to wriggle out of anything (and if you looked at my comments to Jam, you’d see that I got the joke just fine). You brought something to the table for us to consider, and I placed my own; not to be contrary but complimentary. If it doesn’t resonate with you, cool. I’m not trying to be right. We all have our own views and I respect that. It’s not that crucial.
AML
on 31 May 2010 at 6:58 pm #
WHEW! I thought someone had hacked into your account and had you locked in a closet. Ok now that that’s settled, let’s pick on someone else.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 31 May 2010 at 7:05 pm #
LMBAO!!!! AML, you will always be my friend.
BLK CONSERVATIVE
on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:16 am #
I watched that crap, i think half of it was staged but I was not surprised by the results. Models and superheroes are lighter skinned and criminals and bad guys are darker skinned. *going on cartoons and comic books* Even in rap videos where the person gets to portray themselves how they wish; they choose to be the bad guy. At least for the black parents i think monitoring what your child is exposed to is very important at that young of an age.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 09 Jun 2010 at 10:37 pm #
You know what? I think if you look hard enough (and you really want it), you will find whatever you’re looking for in every single thing in the world. Black folks will cry that, say, Bethune-Cookman’s baseball team is all white, and white folks will look at the same thing and STILL bitch about affirmative action stealing opportunities from them. Whatever.
Sometimes when I see enough from all sides, I just have to ask people just what the hell they want.
Sometimes, we just have to accept that “Christmas isn’t coming.” I’m not going to keep going apeshit just because some less-than-fully-scientific study of questionable intent says that people think I look/feel/think/am bad. People may be experts in a great many things, but they can never be an expert in ME.
So, like many of you I’m like DUH!; but like millions of other people in the world, I just shrug at it and keep things moving. The sky is not falling, people, and there are way too many candles and batteries at hand for me to curse the darkness.
No diss; I’m just saying…
AML on 22 Jun 2010 at 12:19 am #
gadJAMmit, where are you!?
THERREN DUNHAM
on 02 Jul 2010 at 10:02 pm #
LOL! AML, I’ve been wondering the same thing. I hope you’re well, Jam.
Big B
on 06 Jul 2010 at 7:03 pm #
Please proofread. Plessy v Ferguson permitted segregation. Brown v Board of Education DEsegregated. DUH! It’s in your very first line. And no, I did not bother to read the rest of the blog.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 07 Jul 2010 at 6:51 pm #
If you had, you would have noticed her correction in the last sentence, five paragraphs down:
“The study and its conclusions were used in the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education case, which led to the DESEGREGATION (emphasis via caps are mine) of American schools—which btw, was fucking brilliant.”
DUH! indeed…
Cathee
on 09 Jul 2010 at 11:09 am #
Anthonyx: You bring up something I’ve wondered about, that is, why do white people try to emulate black people IE: tanning, clothing styles, coloquelisms (sp?), etc. while maintaining their racism?
Indulge my lengthiness here…I was extremely white as a child, veins showing through my skin causing much fodder for children in my white neighborhood to make fun of me. Oddly enough, I also have large lips and a wide nose which caused these same children to call me “n-lips” and “n-nose.” (Into my young adulthood, white people would tell me to “go tan and get some color.”) Thus, I was in love with dark skin as a child, and when my father hired a young woman - black, to help with housekeeping when my mother hurt her back in child delivery, I was enthralled. She was the first black person I’d ever met. One day at lunch, I reached out and lightly touched Jonselle’s arm, and asked her how she got such a beautiful color, my mother sharply said “Cathleen!” (full name when in trouble) and I froze. My mother apologized to Jonselle, who graciously laughed it off. Fast forward to my teen years, when my girlfriend and I went to an African-American ethnic festival. A little girl, black, walked up to me, and with a look of wonder, reached out and lightly touched my arm. Her parents, laughing, explained that I was the first white person their daughter had ever seen up close. (This was the early 70’s, and my friend and I were the two of the very few white people at this festival.) I’ve always mused on the juxtaposition of these two incidents, the little girl’s and my facination with “other color,” and our parents’ differing responses.
I offer this only as an observation; years later I still draw no hard and fast conclusions and can only say that we humans are conflicted between wanting to belong and still maintain our uniqueness. Is it significant that this country would elect a black man over a white woman? Is gender a greater set-back? How about sexual orientation? This is the last bastion of open subjugation still being accepted. Hmmmm…
My feeling safe in presenting all this, along with the (mostly) thoughtful responses presented, are exactly why I love your blog Jam. Thank you.
Cathee
on 09 Jul 2010 at 11:13 am #
Oops, I failed to say that it is your insightful and honest observations, Jam, that first drew me to this site. Please forgive my oversight.
Anonymous on 09 Jul 2010 at 12:08 pm #
Cathee: “You bring up something I’ve wondered about, that is, why do white people try to emulate black people IE: tanning, clothing styles, coloquelisms (sp?), etc. while maintaining their racism?”
Myself, I wonder when are you going to see through the “liberal” race-hustlers who *need* you to believe this sort of bullshit?
THERREN DUNHAM
on 09 Jul 2010 at 5:46 pm #
See, this is what I hate about trying to have these frank discussions on race in this country. Every time someone–anyone–attempts to reach out and seek some semblence of understanding, there’s always some asshole that wants to piss in the pool.
And why do these people have to be ‘anonymous?’ Why can’t they have the intestinal fortitude to put a NAME behind their words? I mean, we bemoan the so-called erosion of free speech, but we aren’t willing to stand up and be counted when we actually do? We want to speak our minds but cower behind computer screen aliases at the same time? Really?
ANYWAY, forgive me. An appropriate answer might be that there have always been mutual appreciation/envy/emulation between different cultures, races, religions and ethnicities. We’ve always had miscegenation, legally or otherwise. It’s only natural, and biology seems to support that.
I don’t know whether being a person of color, a woman, or gay is the bigger obstacle in America today. Like many things, levels of acceptance are quite fluid. Hillary Clinton, for example, might have trounced Barrack Obama, had this been the 1920s. And who would’ve thought that the first openly gay mayor would come from, of all places, Houston, beating a black man with backing from the GOP (though HE was a Democrat)? There’s an ebb and flow in all things, and although things appear to be leveling out, it still is a function of some paradigm shift in our society.
Maybe Anthonyx was hinting at a much larger issue (I have a hunch what it is but I won’t put it here; besides, Jam already kinda dismissed it); maybe “anonymous” ought to name names (starting with his/her own) when calling out these so-called race hustlers who apparently put shotguns to the heads of those white kids who preen for pictures in BLACKFACE, or take up a lot of seats in black studies courses, or insist on playing that tired-ass Martin Luther King card as if the whole civil rights movement began and ended with him.
But enough about that; there’s absolutely nothing wrong with emulating and examining other people’s window into the world we live in, for it makes us understand our own more clearly. It’s that kind of conflict that actually makes us human.
Ilíon
on 09 Jul 2010 at 7:40 pm #
“See, this is what I hate about trying to have these frank discussions on race in this country. Every time someone–anyone–attempts to reach out and seek some semblence of understanding, there’s always some asshole that wants to piss in the pool.”
You must have a really strange idea of what counts as “frank discussions on race in this country” and also what constitutes “piss[ing] in the pool.”
Why, I might even be tempted to suspect that you’re the sort of asshole who will never, ever admit that the asshat currently occupying the WH was a huge mistake.
Ilíon’s last blog post..11 Reasons to Vote Democrat in November
THERREN DUNHAM
on 09 Jul 2010 at 9:24 pm #
It would be you to respond. Guess it is true that if you chop enough weeds, you’ll draw out all the snakes.
We’ve already determined that reading for comprehension wasn’t a particular strength of yours, Ilíon, so let’s recap…and, try to keep up. Cathee was trying to get some clarity for what Anthonyx stated a while ago. Some coward made a snide remark, and I called him on it. While wondering whether said person has an incestuous fixation for Five Alive, I tried to answer the lady’s question as best as I could.
But I digress; you’ve been on these posts long enough to know that most of us are being honest, either with our understanding, our search for that understanding, our frustrations, and (unfortunately) our ignorance. But don’t let that stop YOU from believing it.
No, we’re just all shucking and jiving, wasting time and space in the universe, just to use this blog as a vessel for sociopolitical urination. Yeah, that sounds about right.
See that last paragraph, that’s pissing in the pool, when nothing added to the conversation is of any value than to be needlessly inflammatory. That’s not what Cathee asked for (not that I’m speaking for her), and it’s not what I want to read. But if you want to defend Anonymous, whatever. You’re only exposing yourselves as the clowns I always thought you were.
And as far as the current occupant of 1600 Pennsylavnia Avenue is concerned: He’s there; you’re just talking about him. Until he finishes his term, I have no opinion. And when I make it, it will be none of your concern. Besides, I don’t speak Crayola, so I couldn’t tell you anyway.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 4:29 pm #
Cathee, in spite of how I had to do it, I really do hope that you were able to get something out of my response.
Ilíon
on 12 Jul 2010 at 4:50 pm #
… because, of course, nothing says “Let’s have a frank discussion on race in this country” like calling the fellow an asshole and accusing him of pissing in the pool who calls “Bullshit!” on the “frank” “discussion” that “All whites are inherently and irredeemably racists”
Ilíon’s last blog post..Something else that probably ‘is not acceptable’
Ilíon
on 12 Jul 2010 at 4:51 pm #
You da’ man, Therren!
Ilíon’s last blog post..Something else that probably ‘is not acceptable’
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 12 Jul 2010 at 5:08 pm #
Race is always a touchy subject, I “think” that it all goes well until someone close minded enters in. If people generalize races or educated themselves on races based on tv or even books. Instead of meeting people an opening their eyes, problems will always exist. And they will exist, but I believe relations are getting better.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 5:57 pm #
@BC: You and I are on the same page with this. As are most of the folks who’s posted. Conflict is inevitable. But without struggle, one cannot progress.
By the way, how are you?
@Ilíon: WHAT? Dude, I don’t know what you are reading, but I’ve been up and down this thread, and I’ve found NOTHING that even came close to indicting whites as inherently and irredeemably racist. It’s one thing to speak your mind, but slandering people without cause is as cowardly as crying racism where there is none. As much as I don’t like you, I RESPECT YOU enough to tell you that you’re better than that. You wanna call people out? Give reasons as to why their position is bullshit. You’re not a man of few words; you shouldn’t have an issue with that.
And sorry, dude was an asshole and a coward, and if he has an issue with that, he can either call me on it or kick rocks; makes no difference to me.
So let me ask you again, what about this thread is bullshit?
Ilíon
on 12 Jul 2010 at 5:58 pm #
“I “think” that it all goes well until someone close minded enters in.”
Sure. But short of shooting them, how does one keep the “liberals” out?
Ilíon’s last blog post..Something else that probably ‘is not acceptable’
Ilíon
on 12 Jul 2010 at 6:01 pm #
And yet, Therren, I (not realizing I was posting anonymously) quoted, and condemned, exactly the attitude/assertion you are unable to see … and you called me an asshole for doing so.
Ilíon’s last blog post..Something else that probably ‘is not acceptable’
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 12 Jul 2010 at 6:17 pm #
@Ilíon you can’t keep the liberals out, they control the media….except for Foxnews.com lol
@Therren- i am well
—Race is all over the news now, the new black panther party “2″ year old incident….
—Lawsuit against Arizona, even though Phoenix is the capital of kidnapping in the US, over 370 US citizens kidnapped and taken to Mexico…..
—Riot in California, over White cop who shot unarmed Black Male….
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 7:23 pm #
No, Ilíon, I called the individual who tried to be cute an asshole; if you are “Anonymous,” then you deserved it. (And besides, I knew that Five Alive crack would draw you out;-D) Seriously, I don’t know what your deal is, but i always feel like your MO is to just exist as the conservative contrarian to a room full of liberals. If I were one, I’d happily play the ying to your yang, but I try to see all sides and I’m equally critical of all sides when warranted. I don’t want to be right, except when determining what’s right for me. Maybe that’s hard for some culture warriors, and I pity them. I can’t imagine a world where the only flavors of ice cream are chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla.
Funny, BC, I was just browsing through some black libertarian/neocon blogs a few hours ago; it seems to be a nice little niche (though it’s a matter of time before the old, “how come they have a BLACK conservative blog and I can’t have mine(white)?” argument. Then again, when people have viewpoints and interests that the majority agrees with, it’s all good. (No, Ilíon, this is NOT a blanket statement of all nonblacks!)
The fake-ass NBPs are just teabaggers who came up with revisionist history as social policy first. The other issues are still unfolding, and while I can cure insomnia with a history primer, it’s best that I stand down until more dust settles.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 7:26 pm #
You know what? Counting this post, 13 posts transpired, the majority from the same two people, but not one from Cathee since she posted her question. Somehow that’s not right. I think it would be good taste for us to step back and let the lady have the floor again. I’d hate to keep drowning her voice out.
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 12 Jul 2010 at 8:42 pm #
Even though my name reads BLK CONSERVATIVE, i unlike some of my pals don’t have a foxnews I.V. that keeps me alive lol… Everyone regardless of their views should always educate themselves on the topic. More often than not, most news stations are 60% full of crap trying to get ratings and 40% representing FACTS.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 8:46 pm #
Agreed.
Ilíon
on 12 Jul 2010 at 8:53 pm #
“teabaggers”
See. You’re an ass who doesn’t think for himself.
Ilíon’s last blog post..Mel Gibson and Conservatives-in-Thrall-to-Liberal-Shibboleths … and Lawrence Auster
THERREN DUNHAM
on 12 Jul 2010 at 9:10 pm #
Fine. The hard-right neocons who co-opted the Constitution and try vehemently to return this nation to a land of wealthy farmers and poor indentured servants are teabaggers, while the phony pink panthers co-opt the lineage and history of the original Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, in order to exhault their grandiose visions of racial thuggery and intimidation, are chocolate starfish. And I think they all should spend more time reading books and learning how capitalism works. Happy? Sheesh.
BTW, a man that doesn’t think for himself wouldn’t venture to checkout websites and platforms which vary in some ways from his. Nice thing to consider the next time you want to interject on my posts to other people.
Better to be an ass than an AUTOMATON.
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 12 Jul 2010 at 9:15 pm #
ROASTED!!! HAHAHA….. i must admit I’m waiting for the rebuttal
josh on 14 Jul 2010 at 12:53 am #
why, in 2010, are we so motivated to keep looking at everything as a matter of race? what difference does it make what color someone prefers or relates to as a child? children are ignorant and innocent by nature.
and what does this test prove? it produces a set of data. the data shows a proclivity among white children to identify with lighter colors, a proclivity that some black children apparently share. that is ALL it shows. every bit of “information” that is being gleaned from this study is pure conjecture.
and you people use it as a platform to reinforce the stereotypes that my generation is trying so hard to leave behind us.
you should all be ashamed.
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 14 Jul 2010 at 10:43 am #
@JOSH-CONJECTURE is what your rebuttal is, I can only speak for myself but I did not reinforce any stereotypes… But you are welcome to your opinion and I do hope we can move to a color blind existence
BLK CONSERVATIVE on 14 Jul 2010 at 11:03 am #
@THERREN first I’d like to say, neocon? libertarian? kind of a jab to the gut
i shall be changing my name to , average joe
-i have conservative values but I can’t will not agree with everything they say
-libertarians are almost hedonistic with the screw it, smoke it, whatever attitudes just don’t tax me
-i believe the change of name will help keep from over identifying race and often-political views
that’s all, and remember to vote for me
AVERAGE JOE on 14 Jul 2010 at 3:40 pm #
They banned sodas and sugary drinks in San Fran! hmmm controlling what you can eat!
what is that? lol
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38111986/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca/38090471
AVERAGE JOE on 14 Jul 2010 at 3:41 pm #
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38111986/ns/local_news-san_francisco_bay_area_ca/38090471
Ilíon
on 14 Jul 2010 at 5:47 pm #
Josh: “why, in 2010, are we so motivated to keep looking at everything as a matter of race?”
Because there are still Democrats and “liberals” — that is, leftists — running around in the USA
Josh: “children are ignorant and innocent by nature”
If by ‘innocent,’ you mean ‘ignorant’ — which is, after all, what the word ‘innocent’ means — then yes, children are naturally ignorant. But, if by ‘innocent’ you mean something like “pure little beings of goodness who wouldn’t harm a fly,” then clearly you don’t know much about children.
Josh: “and you people use it as a platform to reinforce the stereotypes that my generation is trying so hard to leave behind us.”
Your generation? Really? Would that be one of the generations who were indoctrinated by the leftists in the public propaganda centers, which some persons amusingly call “schools,” that your parents and grandparents are irredeemable racists … and believed it?
Ilíon’s last blog post..Mel Gibson and Conservatives-in-Thrall-to-Liberal-Shibboleths … and Lawrence Auster
Cathee
on 15 Jul 2010 at 12:58 am #
Wow, and whoa…
Therren Dunham-Thank you for your effort to understand and respond to my comments. Anonymous obviously misunderstood me, the reponse evidences that. I too, could not find any comment that “all whites are racist,” nor do I believe that all whites are racist any more than I think all black people are carrying a chip on their shoulder. Those that are (racist/carrying prejudice) are simply louder, begging for and sometimes commanding more attention. I do believe that causing rifts between races, and other groups is a tool of the rich to keep the common people distracted from the strategic issues. (I recall the debate between who was more worthy - the working mom or the at-home mom, when both are of value and critical to raising children.) BTW-I’ve had to refer to the dictionary to comprehend some of your posts, kudos to you, and do forgive my ignorance, though “innocence” sounds so much better!
JOsh- Not all people see “lighter” as “better,” please review my original post.
blk conservative - I don’t think “color blindness” is a good idea. It ignores the reality of a person’s exsistance. (Many years ago, I was fortunate to date a man who opened my eyes when I would claim “I am a person first, then a woman.” He educated me that regardless of how I viewed it, people saw me as a woman - short, white, and blonde; and this was how they responded to me. A very wise man.) Also, libertarians aren’t necessarily hedonistic; indeed, some are just idealists thinking that total freedom can work in a world of racism and myriad prejudices. I think the recent financial debacle has demonstrated that laws and regulations are required in an imperfect world.
Ilion - Yes, children can be as cruel as…their parent/care givers. Please note though, that up until about two or three years of age, children are “innocent” and demonstrate similar qualities - just watch a two-year old negotiating a drinking straw for the first couple of times. It trancends race/gender/sexual orientation. By the time a child is about 5 or 6 years old, they begin to reflect the values by which they are being reared. I work with children, and yes, they can be the meanest and most harsh humans on the planet, lacking the filters of adults. Also, dear Ilion, keep in mind, no one is perfect, we all error and make mistakes. The big deal is to try and correct mistakes; which, of course, depends on identifying the error.
To all - I personally am beginning to believe that the great divide among us all is more socio-economic more than race. I apologize for my ignorance, and am seeking only to learn more that maybe I can be a better person with more understanding giving way to kindness in a very unkind world. It is so convenient to label and catorigize: liberals are this, and conservatives are that. I recall seeing “For Colored Girls” by Ntozke Shange for the first time, and thinking, “why can’t we learn from, and share with each other?” (You made mention of this, T.D.) Should we not take the best of all worlds, and reject that which is base and harmful?
Onwards and hopefully, upwards, for us all! Hmmmm- new thought to strike me: why do I feel it is awkward (for lack of better words) to identify the race of folks who have played such an important role in my life; that is, unless specifically necessary? I am conflicted. Does it matter? Does it matter that the man who opened my eyes to how the world views me was black? Does it matter that I have friends of all races/genders/sexual orientations? Of course, it has been a gift to me, and I can only hope that I have reciprocated.
Again, thanks Jam. Conversate is NOT a word.
THERREN DUNHAM
on 19 Jul 2010 at 4:50 pm #
Sorry I’ve been away (little thing called getting married), but I kept track on what you all have said. Very good posts.
@BC/AVERAGE JOE: Dude, I’m sorry. Meant no offense, whatever you got out of my statement about neocons, et. al. Please know that whatever our disagreements, you are alright with me. And yes, you have my vote, and my friendship.
@Josh: I couldn’t disagree with you more. Race permeates through every facet of society. Race dominates American society. Americans INVENTED race, and by proxy invented RACISM. I don’t whow where you lean or what books you read, but might I suggest “Race Manners,” by Bruce A. Jacobs (about as even-handed and devoid of ideology as you will find) and “Lies My Teacher Told Me,” by James Loewen. The latter I’m reading now, and it’s absolutely fascinating. In fact, ALL of us should be reading that book. TODAY.
@Ilíon: You never disappoint me. But you’re act is getting old.
@Cathee: I really hope I helped, because your questions also helped me. Thanks. I would read the Loewen text, (though by the time you get to chapter 4, your viewpoint might change a bit). For your last point, It shouldn’t matter at all. We can’t run from our differences, nor should we. But if I said that someone did a god thing for me, or this white person, or this white woman, would either somehow enhance or diminish the deed? If we were focused on the actions instead of the (reactions to the) descriptions, then the answer is a given. Try as we sometimes might, we don’t live in a vacuum, and this land has NEVER been unilaterally one demographic. EVER. We had to learn our world only by engaging others in it. And no one should feel any ambivalence for it, for that’s our birthright as human beings. Always take advantage of that.
AVERAGE JOE
on 23 Jul 2010 at 4:20 pm #
THERREN - we are always cool, whether our opinions match or differ always makes for good reading
THERREN DUNHAM
on 23 Jul 2010 at 7:47 pm #
And good entertainment as well (LMAO!) Be well, my friend.
Cathee
on 04 Aug 2010 at 11:38 pm #
Therren-Thank you, I will find that book. And congratulations on your nuptuals, I wish you both all the best and many blessings and miracles to carry you both through the years.
Ilíon
on 26 Aug 2010 at 10:34 pm #
“@Ilíon: You never disappoint me. But you’re act is getting old.”
And you never fail to fail to be reasonable/rational.
Ilíon’s last blog post..A Conversation with David
~JaBe73
on 30 Aug 2010 at 7:28 pm #
hahahahahahahahahaha @ AML I couldn’t even read the other comments as I literally laughed out loud at “imagine my childs glee…receiving Harriet Tubman in a onesie” too funny.
I was channel surfing and stumbled upon the latter part of the CNN special; not quite certain what anyone learned or how anyone benefitted-perhaps they were up for another Black in America and decided to show us this gem instead. (smh)